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tv   HAR Dtalk  BBC News  January 4, 2018 2:30am-3:01am GMT

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strategist steve bannon — saying he ‘lost his mind'. mr bannon has been quoted in a book describing a meeting between mr trump's son donald junior and a group of russians during the election campaign as treasonous and unpatriotic. surging winds across western europe have left thousands of homes without power and caused chaos for commuters and communities on the coast. in switzerland a train was blown off its tracks — injuring eight people. the dutch authorities have, for the first time, shut all major sea barriers. iran has accused the us of meddling in its domestic affairs, after president trump backed anti—government protests. the iranian un ambassador said donald trump had incited unrest with what he called absurd tweets. the head of iran's revolutionary guards said the unrest was now over. now on bbc news it's time for hardtalk. welcome to hardtalk. the beginning
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of the year is a time for reflecting on the path and plotting a better future. britain, theirfocus is on where brexit is taking the nation. how will leaving the eu will affect the uk's sense of itself and its international standing? my guest is a distinguished political veteran, lord david owen a former labour secretary who tried and failed to change the face of british politics by launching a new party on the ce ntre—left. by launching a new party on the centre—left. does the uk currently have a clue where it is going? lord
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owen, welcome to hardtalk. nice to be here. let's begin with brexit. 2018 must be the year deal is done. an agreement reached between britain and the eu 27 on the shape of brexit. if it is not done this year, there will be no time to ratify it before 2019. do you believe a deal will be done? it can be done and i think it will be done. i am more optimistic now that we have a transition period which many people called for and i think it is essential. lighted immediately you did upon the transition period. doesn't the idea of one mean that what we are looking at is a total barge? in essence, the british government has agreed will still play by the eu's rules for two or three years, possibly more, after march 2019. by training i am a
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doctorate of medicine. i am an abolitionist and when you look at the evidence, people need more time to adjust. if we had planned properly for it, if there had been a government evaluation of what leaving the eu meant done by david cameron's government and we had gotten plants in place then it could have been done much quicker. once it was clear that the cabinet was com pletely was clear that the cabinet was completely bare and cameron would not even remain as prime minister, it was bound to take more time. i don't think we should expect to be anything other than basically our by december 2020. we will be out of the eu in march... in 2019 and com pletely eu in march... in 2019 and completely from the arrangement. we will still be europeans. we will be traders in europe as we have been
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for centuries. the emphasis of our exporting effort will shift but that has already been shifting. we have been moving away from europe and towards foreign markets for the last 20 years. we will talk about trade and the wider diplomatic field in which britain will play. to stick with the process for a moment, you have written much about it. i quote you directly, brexit never was and never can be an easy decision. it must be so filled by a united uk. only a united country will get a good dealfrom the eu. it is quite transparently obvious that the uk is not united. even the cabinet is not united over what represents a good dealfor britain. i think united over what represents a good deal for britain. i think they are coming toa deal for britain. i think they are coming to a better position. it would be better if they were mourned united. this issue of europe has been splitting political parties
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ever since i first became a candidate for the labour party in 1962 when this issue was raised. we have only had a two referendums, quite exceptional, and that is a cost the labour party was split, massively, in 1975 and had a referendum and the conservative party was split massively and we have this recent referendum. mps show by the day how difficult it is for them to face reality. they voted for them to face reality. they voted for a referendum and put it through. you abdicate from the decision. you passed that over to the people of the country. they can get involved in negotiation strategy and some elements but even as a you are constrained. it is an international negotiation between 27 countries and ourselves. it is not even really a negotiation. they will come forward with a framework and we have to agree. the referendum clearly was advisory, that was the nature of
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the. secondly, as the upshot of the moment. the argument today from many people in the conservative party who are pro— remain and the labour party who are pro— remain as well is independent of servers is a feeling that if the public opinion would fundamentally shift during the course of 2018 then there would be legitimate grounds for a second vote. do you accept that? i don't believe there would be. i must say that when a government sent out a message, paid for by the taxpayer, to every individual and says this is your decision and we will abide by it, i think that the country must abide by it. as a democrat, doesn't worry you that you guv, which has been tracking opinion ever since the referendum, has found recently a consistent feeling among the rich public who say they would prefer britain to remain and not leave. there are many different polls on that but i am not going into them. i
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don't enter into the argument about the referendum. that decision has been taken by the people. there is a legitimate argument about how we negotiate and what position were dogged by highlighting the decision is taken. —— but the decision is taken. a federal europe was warned about two years ago. i supported that. it's not so much about trade as the fundamental ones that this country should be a self—governing country. talking constitutionalism. usage in the house of lords. the eu withdrawal bill is going through the commons and it looks as if theresa may has cobbled together a legislative deal which is acceptable toa legislative deal which is acceptable to a majority in the commons. you will go to the lords and there is a strong possibility that there is not a majority in the house of lords and
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the tory party is considering a slew of pro— brexit peers to ensure a majority in the lords. it has no legitimacy at all to block a referendum. house of lords. it is the house of commons who sent it to the house of commons who sent it to the upper house. we are an advisory chamber who can make sensible changes on legal issues and there are complicated legal questions about this bill which are inevitable. but they should be weighed and considered. at the end of the day, the house of commons has to determine the issue. they have to be very aware, more than they are at the moment, of the will of the people. this issue has been with us for a very long time. in 1975 there was a decisive vote and it was accepted. acyclic, forfour was a decisive vote and it was accepted. acyclic, for four years. this time i think it has surprised
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the people who are passionate. i supported europe for many years. and idid not supported europe for many years. and i did not make a u—turn. i did not even change my position. i oppose the eurozone. i don't believe you can run a currency from 27 countries. i did not believe in a federal europe and never did. as foreign secretary i put to cabinet a paper that was designed to show you could be in europe without it coming a federal europe. now with the french president, very determined for a federal europe, good luck to him. if he and germany put their a cts him. if he and germany put their acts together, it is possible to see acts together, it is possible to see a fleece the eurozone countries, may bea a fleece the eurozone countries, may be a reduced number, effectively being a united states of europe and we will have good relations with them. talking about how that will work, you wrote a book about the foreign policy after brexit. someone
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25 years younger than me voted remain andi 25 years younger than me voted remain and i should think this shows you can bridge the gap. that's unpicked the thoughts behind the book. you said... this is not in the book. you said... this is not in the book that something you said before the referendum itself that stuck in my mind. we will rediscover the skills of blue water diplomacy and rise to the challenge of global markets. it would be the spark we need to re—energise britain. a challenge and an opportunity. is touring staff. what on earth is this blue water that we must see you speak of? we do before, we used to have a worldwide navy. this is not the times of lord palmerston any longer... of course not. it is a modest navy but it has —— is capable in my view, i don't see them playing up in my view, i don't see them playing up and down the south china sea taking on china but i do think we
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have wa nted taking on china but i do think we have wanted and needed for the un a naval rapid reaction force for many yea rs naval rapid reaction force for many years and i think this could be a lead role for britain but with commonwealth partners. but to begin with this notion of britain rising to the challenge of local markets and a focus on the military because it seems much more important to focus on trade. we am -- we have a history of merchant trade. we have gone and opened markets in the past. you may sound like a rude yard kipling novel. the reality is quite different. —— rudyard kipling. kipling novel. the reality is quite different. -- rudyard kipling. when i left the house of commons, i left it. i was in business in the uk in textiles. in russia with steel and oil and textiles. in russia with steel and oiland in textiles. in russia with steel and oil and in america with pharmaceutical industries. i am not talking completely with no knowledge
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of what it takes to export. and a fair point. but i'll wonder if you are reading what those outside britain looking in our same. essentially key trading partners with the british government says they will reach out to extract deals with. this is what they say. china, beijing's state—run global times... when philip hammond went therejust before christmas, they said that uncertainty over the future position of the uk in global trade in financial markets will inevitably have affected the investment and cooperation plans of chinese companies in the uk. india. the high commissioner, no less of india in the uk has said that britain will have to accept higher levels of immigration from india if it is to have any hope of signing a free—trade deal with india after brexit. this is the reality. if they are skilled people coming in to fill jobs in high—quality areas of expertise, india does have great
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knowledge in terms of computers and modern science, we should welcome them. that you know that most people... i wouldn't presume to know what they really felt, but many people it seems to voted brexit, voted on the grounds that it would reduce immigration, period. what they did not want was unlimited immigration from 27 eu countries that they had no capacity to limit or control. we will have to have immigration laws now answerable to parliament that this is not a closed door. we are not closing ourselves to people who can help our economy or help our national health service, help science. and also to students. we need to be very much aware of the balance and immigration has provided great strengths for this country. and i don't know of any serious brexiteer who believes we will suddenly stop all immigration. we need to moderate it. it grew out of
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control, particularly where was concentrated in parts of the country where there was not enough in the health service nor education. and if you could address my point about china? in the word of a china expert here in london he says the britain has diminished and isolated itself in the eyes of the chinese as a result of brexit. i don't agree with that. i know it is sometimes said by these experts but i have watched little article about it. just recently i think in the telegraph, a small company in hastings deciding to move from 90% into european trade to move from 90% into european trade to move from 90% into european trade to move into china. they took an area of high electronic lighting equipment and they now sell into chain hotels and do extremely well in china. but we could have done that in the eu. germany's trade relationship with china outstripped sales because they do very good exporting stuff. i don't see how brexit will improve that. why do you take on yourself to say
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we are not? what do you know of this issue? i'm just saying we are not? what do you know of this issue? i'mjust saying relative we are not? what do you know of this issue? i'm just saying relative to germany... why do we spend our whole time doing ourselves down? why do we have day after day newspaper stories aimed at the moralising, aimed at sharpening against it? who are these people who can't take defeat in a referendum who spend their whole time on this issue? there is a positive story. we are a great country still, we have a great deal of courage, enterprise, energy in our young people. i know you are one of them who would wish to stay, but what i would like to see about those younger people, they are much more, in my view, turning their hand to the challenge in front of us. what would you call the imf and the cbi, and the bank of england, are these all part of this sort of doom mongering conspiracy? all three of the people you have mentioned... well, they are institutions. they we re well, they are institutions. they were prophets of doom before the referendum result. those exact predictions have not been fulfilled. and when we are joint bottom of the
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g7 and growth? we have had a devaluation in part as a result of brexit but in part in my view because we were at an unrealistic exchange rate. our exporters are moving up... i don't really understand why one should spend our whole time questioning the very judgement of the british people who decided that they wanted to leave the eu. is that the role of the elite? is this the role of some mps who were not able to win? or are we prepared to live with the result and make a success of it? and i really do believe this requires...” make a success of it? and i really do believe this requires... i think it is important that the future be considered very carefully, notjust from the point of view of the politics of brexit, but from what those outside the uk are actually saying and thinking about britain's future relationship with their own countries. to finish... what i would say it he read out is a challenge. and i don't deny it is a challenge. but what do you think the americans are going to make of the uk post—
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brexit? just to quote you a couple of important voices, senior democrat senator ben carden said recently germany post— britain leaving the eu, germany will become even more dominant in the eu. and he is looking to the eu first, not to an independent uk. well, germany is already the dominant partner in the eu, it is the strongest country. but i believe that written will become a very important, major contributor to nato, which will be welcomed by many americans. after all, it wasn'tjust president trump, it was president obama who told us we were freeloading, we in europe, on nato. you speak with a perspective full of fascinating experience. a former labour party from foreign secretary, who decided to leave labour, you found it to left wing, to socialist, you wanted to create a new centre ground political movement, the social democratic party, for a while. it was extraordinary popular but ultimately it was a failed attempt to break the mould of
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british politics. here we sit today with a really avowedly socialist, leftist labour leader, jeremy corbyn, who says that he now represents the new centre ground in british politics. he says he is on the cusp of a historic victory for socialism and the left in the united kingdom. first of all, do you think thatis kingdom. first of all, do you think that is true? i don't think we can tell. i think that labour got many votes, many, many votes, in the north of england, from people who wa nted north of england, from people who wanted to leave the european union. and i think that labour should focus itself on getting a good result, leaving the european union. and i think all of us should. it seems to be labour's policy is to say, yes, we are going to leave, we want to leave, but we want to stay if possible inside the customs union, baby inside the single market as well, and if that isn't possible, we wa nt well, and if that isn't possible, we want the closest relationship possible and the softest wrecks at possible. well, i want the closest relations possible, but it is not possible to have control over the emigration from eu countries into
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this country and stay in the single market and in the customs union. this has been made crystal apparent. and you have only got to see what president macron onlyjust recently criticised the eu for giving as much to david cameron in his deal, he called it blackmail. now he definitely wouldn't give us a better deal than was offered to david cameron, and that wasn't sufficient. soi cameron, and that wasn't sufficient. so i think... you have couched your view of corbyn in terms of brexit, and it is very important. let's just leave brexit aside for a moment. well, let me, i didn't answer your question on corbyn and i will answer your question on colburn. i think he has got quite a lot running for himself and his party, and good to him. ithink himself and his party, and good to him. i think it is a very remarkable achievement. sorry to interrupt, it is rude of me, but if you are in labour today, a senior figure is rude of me, but if you are in labour today, a seniorfigure in the labour today, a seniorfigure in the labour party, would you feel able to serve underjeremy corbyn, or would you walk away? i gave money to the labour party at the last election. i ama labour party at the last election. i am a supporter but not a member. i
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am a supporter but not a member. i am nota member am a supporter but not a member. i am not a member because i don't agree with quite a lot of its economic policy. but i do think that they have shown greater strength. i personally think labour is more right than not on the health service, and i think this government is literally destroyed the health service in england. fortunately, not yet in scotland, wales or in northern ireland. so i am still a social democrat. i have never made any secret of this. i have never been a tory, and i will never be a tory. but on this issue at the moment, let me focus. i do believe theissue moment, let me focus. i do believe the issue for this country over 2018, and i agree with you, this is the moment where the toughest decisions are going to be taken over brexit, that we should rally as a country, we should spend our time on getting the best deal that, that party politics should slip away into its normal place, and not elevate. there will be time of an election, it might be 2019, might be 2020, might even go to 2021. by that time, labour has the opportunity to
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present itself even more successfully than it did at the last election, which it didn't win. i hope they will. i am not one who is going to spend my ho, called i'm telling you that mr corbyn will never be prime minister. i think it might well be. well, with respect, i did look at your past prognoses of jeremy corbyn, you said you didn't even think he would lead labour into the last election. he said he is a decent person but i think you will have to stand down before the last election. which you said before that election. which you said before that election. i did, but i also say don't create a new party. the sdp was a great attempt. it is a truth thatjeremy corbyn has shown more sensitivity to his critics from the right than michael foot ever showed in1981. right than michael foot ever showed in 1981. what i associate you so much with the fight within labour against so—called militant and left—leaning groups within the party, in the late 70s and early 805. you party, in the late 705 and early 805. you walked away, you were described as a traitor by so many in the labour party. and now, corbyn,
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who has a an agenda of nationalisation, about out because he is very proud to be a socialist. you are saying i can sign up to that, i can even give money to it. well, i think the last act of the labour government under gordon brown, which was a sensible one, was in fact to nationalise part of the ra ilways, in fact to nationalise part of the railway5, when it had collapsed. that is the second david gower new turn. you don't like the phrase, but you have change position on europe from being pro— being in the eu to being very much being out of it, and in terms of socialism, and a pure left—wing ideology, he rebelled against it, and now you are for it. i neverjoined the liberal party. i stayed a social democrat all this time. i told you, i don't think currently the labour party is a social democratic party, that is why i have not joined social democratic party, that is why i have notjoined it. but i am of the left. i am a passionate believer in the national health service. i believe that the creation of that was a great thing. i rejoice in the
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fa ct was a great thing. i rejoice in the fact that my father didn't have too asked his patients to pay. so on social policy i have always been on the left. but i was, when i was leader of the sdp, and even before, i believe that we did have to change trade union laws. i believe that we did have to change the economy, and above all, i wanted 5trong defence, all of those were challenged by michael foot in 1981 to 1983, and it took 81... from the time we left, until 1997 before labour one. corbyn i5 until 1997 before labour one. corbyn is getting closer to it, and a5 until 1997 before labour one. corbyn is getting closer to it, and as i 5aid is getting closer to it, and as i said to you, he has attracted young people. he has got an increased membership. you can't take this away from him. if you had your time over again, would you now think differently about leaving the labour party? would you have stayed in? well, you 5tudied the5e party? would you have stayed in? well, you 5tudied these things, you know perfectly well i was totally oppo5ed know perfectly well i was totally opposed to the new sdp linking up with the liberal party within weeks and months of joining. with the liberal party within weeks and months ofjoining. i thought that was a great mistake. we were a
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new party and we should have stood on our own ground. and i did not expect when ijoined the sdp, and helped to make it a success, but i would spend a lot of time arguing are you or are you not a liberal? i was not a liberal. i remain a social democrat, and that means i have to give the labour party might help where i can, my criticism where i think it is where i can, my criticism where i think it i5ju5t, but where i can, my criticism where i think it is just, but overall, i where i can, my criticism where i think it i5ju5t, but overall, i am on the left in british politics, and i have never shifted that position. we have two mba, but thank you very much for being on hardtalk. thank you. -- we have the end there. storm eleanor brought some damage, disruption to ireland and the uk. it has continued to move away in towards the baltic states,
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as you can see here, beginning to weaken now. but we're looking out to the west, to this next area of low pressure, which is showing signs of deepening, strengthening all the while as it's reaching our shores, and could bring us 5evere gale5 during the course of this afternoon. initially, it's going to send a weather front out ahead of it. some of the rain will be fairly heavy, quite persistent during the overnight period and to start this morning. but, further north and east, a dry, chilly start to the day, with a little bit of frost and fog potentially in central and northern scotland. so, today, there's going to be that early—morning rain, and then into the afternoon, tho5e winds are going to pick up, particularly across the south. so we start on a wet note to start with this morning in the south—east, east anglia, pushing in towards east midlands and northern england.
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tho5e wind5 behind the rain band picking up. reaching gale—force, in the south—west, particularly around coastal areas and in towards wale5. the rain will be persistent, fairly heavy acro55 northern england, pushing into northern scotland and northern ireland. and, with a little bit of elevation, with that cold air around, we could be looking at some snow over the higher ground here. but a dry, cold start for much of northern scotland, with a bit of mi5t and fog around, too. a few showers acro55 the northern i5le5, mind you. that rain band will move north and grinds to a halt in the far north of england, central and southern scotland, and northern ireland. behind it, though, for much of england and wales, a brighter afternoon, some sunshine, 5howers. but those gusty wind5 touching 60mph, maybe more in exposure in wales, the south—west and into the south—east. a very mild 12—13 degrees here, a little bit cooler further north. that area of low pressure clears away, and on friday, we're looking at another feature running in off the atlantic. it's going to bring another 5pell of wet and fairly windy weather to our shores. a little bit of snow to start across some of the northern hill5 first thing on friday, and then those wind5 picking up again initially south—west
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england, wales, the south coast and south—east. some 5un5hine around, too. much more cold air begins to push into scotland with an increasing chance of wintry 5howers. that cold air down from the arctic 5pread5 right across the uk for the weekend, so it's going to feel distinctly cold. much, much colder out on that strong north—north—ea5t wind. it's going to feel bitterly cold, in fact. there will be some 5un5hine around. wintry showers in eastern area5, temperatures 6—7 degrees at best. the winds maybe a bit lighter across the board on sunday. still quite breezy across the south—east, but it's going to feel even colder, despite there being plenty of sunshine. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is mike embley — our top stories: president trump unleashes a tirade against his former chief strategist steve bannon, for accu5ing donald trump jr of treason. winter 5torms 5weep europe — claiming live5, cutting power and causing chao5 for travellers and coastal communities. australia's air accident
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inve5tigator5 raise the seaplane which cra5hed near sydney on new year , we'll have the latest from the scene. one of the world's most sacred rivers — the ganges in india — is also one of the most—polluted — clogged with plastic waste and other rubbish. and the helping hand of science — researchers in italy develop a bionic limb that feels like the real thing.
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